Author Topic: About Cleopatra  (Read 8896 times)

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Offline Migara

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About Cleopatra
« on: December 31, 2006, 07:18:58 AM »


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Offline koombiya

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2007, 09:37:56 AM »
Poorme>>
"Lankawe pirimi" mama hithanne...
oya wage ewuwa hari yayi- langadima mahinda chinthanayen sex thahanam karapuwahama...  :D :D :D :D :D (dan ithuru echcharayi)
Aadaraya Siyallata Ihalin...!

Offline casper123

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2007, 10:44:48 AM »
Poorme>>
"Lankawe pirimi" mama hithanne...
oya wage ewuwa hari yayi- langadima mahinda chinthanayen sex thahanam karapuwahama... :D :D :D :D :D (dan ithuru echcharayi)

me koombiya Mahinda Chinthaneth ekka orroppui wage matanam hithenne. mokada eya monawa liuwath anthimata nathara wenne Mahinda Chinthane laginui. mokada e?????

mata hithenne meya anti M. C. kenek wage. kohama unath ehema ewata me MC eken hodata nidahasa dila thiyenawa wagema me Sinahalaya ekenuth kisima aduwak nethiwa ekata nidahasa thiyenawa. e gena oya adambara wenna one.

dekkada Mahinda kiyala thibba "One tharam matai mage paulatai neyantai mada gahanna hebei me rata pawala denna weda karanna epa kiyala".  anna niyama pora talk ekak. eka aniwaryenma age karanna one. mokada e gena kiyanne. thawama merate kisima nayakayek kiyala nethuwa ethi e wage talk ekak.

itin kohama unath sorry wenna oney meke topic eken pita giyata. eth me wa genath kauru hari dekka thena katha karanna epaye neda. 


casper123
« Last Edit: January 04, 2007, 12:12:50 PM by casper123 »

Offline koombiya

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2007, 11:32:29 AM »
Poorme>>
"Lankawe pirimi" mama hithanne...
oya wage ewuwa hari yayi- langadima mahinda chinthanayen sex thahanam karapuwahama... :D :D :D :D :D (dan ithuru echcharayi)

me koombiya Mahinda Chinthaneth ekka orroppui wage matanam hithenne. mokada eya monawa liuwath anthimata nathara wenne Mahinda Chinthane laginui. mokada e?????

mata hithenne meya anti M. C. kenek wage. kohama unath ehema ewata me MC eken hodata nidahasa dila thiyenawa wagema me Sinahalaya ekenuth kisima aduwak nethiwa ekata nidahasa thiyenawa. e gena oya adambara wenna one.

dekkada Mahinda kiyala thibba "One tharam matai mage paulatai neyantai mada gahanna hebei me rata pawala denna weda karanna epa kiyala".  anna niyama pora talk ekak. eka aniwaryenma age karanna one. mokada e gena kiyanne. thawama merate kisima nayakayek kiyala nethuwa ethi e wage talk ekak.

itin kohama unath sorry wenna oney meke topic eken pita giyata. eth me wa genath kauru hari dekka thena katha karanna epaye neda. 


casper123

raththarane>> "anti M. C. kenek " kiyana eka not clear. eeka kiyala dennako issarawela.....
Aadaraya Siyallata Ihalin...!

Offline casper123

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2007, 11:53:39 AM »
Quote

raththarane>> "anti M. C. kenek " kiyana eka not clear. eeka kiyala dennako issarawela.....
Quote

e kiyanne Mahinda Chinthaneta Wirudda Anthawadiyek kiyana ekai

casper123

Offline koombiya

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2007, 01:54:59 PM »
Quote

raththarane>> "anti M. C. kenek " kiyana eka not clear. eeka kiyala dennako issarawela.....
Quote

e kiyanne Mahinda Chinthaneta Wirudda Anthawadiyek kiyana ekai

casper123

mahinda chinthanaya nirapeksha lesa ok nam - owu mama anthawaadiyek raththaran. namuth ehema nowena eka thamayi gataluwa.
anyway, meka nawathwamu - methana yanne wena kathaa bahakne sahodaraya. anik eka mama me dinawala inne honda mood ekaka nemeyi- ablik mood ekak

aadaren
koombiya

Aadaraya Siyallata Ihalin...!

Offline Mahasen

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2007, 03:48:45 PM »
meka dakkama matah liyanna hithuna yamak
mama nam eda indalama  gahaniyekta “ BADUWA, KALLA” kiyana ewata wirudda wunu kenek.
Hama gahaniyak samagama wal kame yanne thawath pirimiyeki
Ithin deparshawayama  eka ha samanawa waradi kirimak wenawa

Prashne eeka nemei
Oya Colombo7  inna Nonala , ge socities gana nam kiyala wadak naha
Miniha bannoth athak issuwoth( eekth waradi thamai) Divorce wenna kiyana tharamata  eyala amuthu Nirbeetha kamak aaropanaya karagatta aya,
Eyalage kiyen kee denada pawul jeewitayak hariyata gath karanne.


Migara kiwa wage ape rate kanthawata amuthuwen usas thanak oona naha
Eeka eda indalama labuna uthuma thanak
Thawamath bada daru amma kenekta seat ekak Bus ekaka labenawa
Ee tharamata pirihila naha ape rata


Offline Maxi

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2007, 03:43:11 PM »
Mata ada me topic ekai ekata post karala thiyena commitmentsui dekkama punchi deyak hithuna... Kawuruth tharaha wenna epa mama mehema kiyanawata....... Kollowath kellowath... Hodada...?

Cleopatra kiyana charithaya Dhanayath Balayath thibuna, a dhanyath balayath nisa thamange chatrithaya winasha kara gaththa kantha charithayak kiyalai mata hithenne... Mokada Cleopatra athe thubuna balayai dhanyaiy laba ganna pirimi uthsaha kala... Eya lassanaith thamai....

Mata kiyanna one une Cleopatra gena newei... Me "Kalla" "Baduwa" wage kollo pawichchi karana wachana gena nam tikak duka hithenawa thama.. Mama ahala thiyenawa samahara pirimi lamai thaman adare karana genu lamayatath kiyanne "kalla" kiyala... Eka a genu lamayata ehema ehunoth kochchara duka hitheida...?? A wagema 'Badu" thiyenne apita pawichchi karala ayin karala danna... Ithin ehema kagewath jeewithayak gena katha karana eka hoda ne kiyalaiy mata hithenne...

Thawa punchi deyak mathak una Mahasen kiyapu kathawa dekala... Aththatama ape rate kanthawanta hariyata garu karanawa thama.... Aththa... Thamath bus ekata train ekata bada duru amma kenek neggama seat ekak hambu wenawa thamai.. Hebiei chuttak mathak karala balanna a seat eka denna kiyala kondosthara kee parak ke gehuwata passeda kiyala....???? School uniform eken bus eke yana genu lamayekuta pawa bus ekedi hirihera karanne nedda kiyala...???? A wage deyak dekkama a genu lamayata udau karanna idiripath wena pirimi kee denek innawada kiyala...??? Re 7n passe weda arila gedara yanna bus halt ekata giyama kee denuk visl karanawada kiyala...??? Bus ekata train ekata naginna giyama kanthawata kalin naginne pirimi neweida kiyala...? Me tharam kanthawanta garu karana rate .. anthimedi "Ladies Only" Kiyala bus ekak danna wela nedda kiyala....???? ( Mama me kiyana dewal aththatama bala ganna onne nam Pitakotuwe bus stand eken bus ekata negala balanna. Kotuwe station ekata gihin platform ticket ekak aragena train ekakata nagina minissu diha balagena inna.. Re 7 withara wela Nawaloke gawa hari, salaka eka gawa hari, nettham kotuwe station eka issarahin hari bus halt ekakata wela 'parissamin" bala gena inna. )

Me hema deyakma athare dewiyo wage minissuth innawa.... Hema kenama eka wage ne ne... Punchi punchi weradi thibunath ape rate tharuna paramparawa nam godakma hodai... A bawa me coloum eken penawa.....

Meka mama hithuwata wediya diga wedi una... Ekata samawenna...

Offline casper123

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2007, 09:08:10 AM »
matath mekata repply ekak danna hithuna onna.

Me Cleopatra kiyane kauda. eya athitaye hitapu Balawathma Dhanawathma kanthawa. balanna e kale hitiya kanthawanta pawa visala balathala thibba heti. kohama unath mama dakinne e dhanaya balaya nisa thama eyata ehema une. eya wata eyage balaya dhanaya ganna hithe thibba pirimi eyata kittu una eyawa anisi deyta polabawagena. eyage thibba ekama nonjal gathiya eka thama. e eyata genu sithak thibba nisai.

e uanata mama kiyanna hadanne eka nemey. eyata echchara piriminge karadara thibilath eya nosellwi eyage balaya pawichchi kara eyata hari kiyala hithana deyta. e dey harida weridida kiyala eya beluwe nehe. balanna den inna kanthawanta ehema karanna puluwanda kiyala.

kohama unath  Zeasor la wage aya eyawa wattanna heduwath eya nosellwi ewata muhuna dunna,

eya rakinna Soorapappa Jim pappa Weda Pappa wage ayth hitiya adatath ehemai Cleo oya baya wenna epa baya nethuwa muna denna. E wage Cleo ta udau karana eyawa pelanna hadana ayawa winasa karanna hadana ayawa paraddanna one tharam Soorapappa Jim pappa Weada Pappa la me rate innawa.

samaharun ge wedey mona dey kalath M. Chin.. ta banina ekani e thama ara Zeasorla. eka Ithihasaye wagema Warthamanayatath gelapenawa. mokada  e ayge kalpanawa kohama hari mona dey karala hari Cleo wa wattannai.

itin den ethi neda


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Offline weli_polonga

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2007, 06:13:21 PM »
Cleopatra VII    (69 BC - 30 BC)

Cleopatra was of Macedonian desent  that ruled Egypt as an Egyptian Queen from age 18  till her death at 39. She was the last of the Pharaohs to have ruled Egypt, as Romans took control of the country after her death.

A woman of great beauty (some historians have stated that if her nose was 2 milimeters long or short the world history would have been different), she was married to 5 people, including two of her brothers (at assumption to power when she was 18 and the bro was 12, other other when she was much older, the first dead and the second was only 11) and one of her own sons only 2 years old. The Egyptian tradition called for a woman to have a consort to be the queen (much like today for any sucessful woman), while it did not specify the (consorts) age.

Two men, the history records of, as having sex with her are Julies Caesar and Mark Anthony (both married her). Anthony came to the picture only after Caesar's murder on the Ides of March 44 BC. She had one son by Caesar and  two sons and one daughter by Anthony.

She had it all, wealth, beauty, inteligence and comon sense. Her love for Egypt was the heart of her rule. Many men feared her as she got her bothers and sisters murdered to gain the control of the kingdom during the early period. She used a cousine of mine (an Egyptian Cobra) to commit suicide after Mark committed suicide by falling over his sword (probebly the first hara kiri in history) after loosing the battle with Octavian in 30 BC.

Do you see her as a wicked women? Half of our great kings got their fathers and brothers murdered to gain the crown and went on to build great stupas to clear their guilt.

There are no historical proof to show her as a mean harlot. She was a lady and a first class one at that.

So Cleo you have chosen a great name. Don't disgrace it. Use it with vigor and don't take all these male chulvernists that seriously
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 06:17:56 PM by weli_polonga »
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Offline Migara

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2007, 03:13:30 PM »
weli_polonga has failed to understand the base which our society stands on. Its called the family. In the family mother is an integral part. There is not much respect for a woman unless she is a mother, a sister or a daughter.

Cleopatra tried to go out of this scope. But the real conflict comes as she has bedded with many men. She even slept with own brothers for the hunger of power. Incest is not approved in our socitey, but may be approved in the fantacy where WP lives in.

The whole issue centers on the fact that sexually promiscous people are not regarded as greats as in our society despite gender. The gender difference has been artifically ported to our society. So cleopatra is not a great woman, She's simply a whore. It does not need a male chuvenist to conclude that and such species are only found only in Western society or people who ahve their heads filled with it.
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Api thawama pem karamau ape jeewitha walata

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Offline weli_polonga

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2007, 02:07:51 PM »
Hi Migara,

Few points to counter your arguments.

I agree that the nucleus of our civilization is the Family. It is the nuclear family. Few generations ago (and still in rural villages) it is the extended family. In the developed world it is fast becoming a Single Parent Family. (One of the prices we have to pay for development ??? I wonder ???)

When you say that there is “No respect to a woman unless she is a mother, sister or daughter” that is what I call (classic) Male Chauvinism. You do not respect a lady because she is a woman.

Regarding Cleopatra, there is no recorded history to say that she bedded with many men. It records only two. Caesar and Anthony. The other marriages were for her to keep the crown and not for sex. One of her husbands was only 2 years old and her own son. The two brothers she married were 11 and 12 years old and the History never records that they had sex. It was not regarded as incest by any Historian or Egyptologist, and we are not talking about decadent West here. We are talking about Egypt. A civilization that was much more older and grandeur than our own Sinhala civilization. It demanded that their Queen have a consort (brother, son or the guy next door) to rule its land. It was their culture. Lets not judge their culture here because it was much more advanced than our own.

Most (if not all) Great Men in history and almost all males living today are sexually promiscuous. Show me one straight arrow in this forum and I'll show a lier. Islam allows its men up to four or seven wives (what poor guys – we are trying to get rid of the one we have). Even our own kandyan system allowed promiscuous women. (woman to share the brothers). The one and only case in the world where promiscuous females were tolerated in public life.  Because every where else women were look down upon if they were promiscuous. Simple reason, to keep the family identity and wealth. Males can go banging around coz the family identity is not affected. There is a book by Karl Marx on this, good work called Origin of family, nation & state or something close to that. (woo my memory is not what it used to be. And I read it may be 25 years ago).

Now to our own Cleo's mistake. There is no Queen of Kings. If the Queen rules there is no king, only a consort. When a King rules his wife is the queen. ( Male Chauvinism in action I suppose).

I don’t live in a fantasy nor just reality. This world is changing fast. It is becoming a global village. You may fight globalization but cannot prevent it. We are becoming a single Race (mankind or better human kind – otherwise the women chauvinist will protest here) and one country (Mother Earth) with no boundaries to separate us and just one religion (the belief in human kindness and love) to unite us.  I know, now I’m day dreaming. But we are going that way with temporary setbacks called war and terrorism. My daughters will never see it, but perhaps their great grand children will bless us for our dreams.

Have a grate day Migara
« Last Edit: February 19, 2007, 03:47:06 PM by weli_polonga »
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Offline Migara

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2007, 09:26:00 PM »
Once again you have miserad me. woman is no  one if she is not a daughter, mother or a sister. A man is no one if he is not a father, son or a  brother. Individualism is not a part of our cluture. We admire people according to their social roles they fulfill.

We are of Sinhala culture, but that is a descent from Aryan culture which has proginated almost same time and equally grand. Don't forget the chinese civilization which is also bear striking similarities with us.

We are becoming globalized - americanised, westernized? Westerns are not taking a single step towards understanding oriental culture. They want to destroy it hiding behind the word "globalisation" The whole issue becomes bullshit as what the global village without boundries is trying to create a second round of colonies of the Empire of theWestern World.
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Offline weli_polonga

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2007, 12:57:59 PM »
We are off topic now.

But let me tell you something which I read many years ago. It was some European writer all right. This 18th century sob (have forgotten his name) claimed that Sinhalese have originated from some island off Sumatra and we got lot of Chinese blood running in us. He also claimed that we carry a dragon (not a lion) in our flag. I was under the impression that he was hallucinating from Chinese opium when he wrote it. But it looks like there are few modern day supporters to this theory. I really don’t bye this Aryan stuff. I think we got more Dravidian blood running in us than Aryan. They live next door. Anyway on one thing we can agree. We Sinhalese are also colonizers. We assimilated the poor Veddas and took over their country.

 The global village that I proclaim will give every individual to have his own identity (culture). It will not happen because the UN or the G8 decides so.  It will be forced on us by technology.

Nation State was not created by victorious kings or marauding armies. It was made posible by railway and telegraph. When our kings reigned in Anuradhapura or Polonnaruwa do you think anyone living in Kasbewa or Hambanthota knew who their king was? Most didn’t or cared. The people around those big cities knew but the info had no way of filtering down to grass roots.  This was changed by technology. And the same technology has given us cyber space. This new wave of human advancement (some calls it the Third Wave – not Third Reich, I’m no Nazi) is going to change many aspects of our daily life. When it runs its full course, history will turn another page. It will be much better than what we live today (touch wood). 

I’m not a Marxist coz Marx never understood the impact technology has in civilization. He believed that Economy was the corner stone of civilization and proved himself wrong.

Woooo pretty heavy stuff. Makes me dizzy just writing it.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2007, 01:02:40 PM by weli_polonga »
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Offline Waluka

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2007, 11:52:23 PM »
This is interesting. Thanks Weli-Polonga for your insights. I enjoyed historical details of Cleopatra, who enjoys a special place in the history.

My comments link to you views on history, not on Cleo, but on Sri Lanka’s history.  Migara & Weli have valuable points on Sinhalese history and globalisation, but they are afar from the real truths – established facts and recorded scripts.

Firstly the origin of Sinhalese, it is a well-accepted fact that Sinhalese are the descendants of Prince Vijaya (Vijaya Sinha) of Kalinga Desa of present day Orissa in South East of India. “Kalinga Kingdom” existed in Orissa with its close connections to Sri Lanka for centuries, after Price Vijaya was sent away by his father with 500 supporters in 554 BC in ships to punish his riotous behaviour from the city of Sinhapura, which was the capital of kalinga. The voyage of Vijaya ended in Thambapanni, present day Puttalama in Sri Lanka. Later he married Kuveni, who was from the local Yaksha tribe. The kings of this Sinhala Kingdom were later established wide relations with neighbouring Kingdooms in India including – Magahada, Chola, Pandya, Chera and Sri Vijaya of East Asia. The Sinhala Kingdom earned its unique identity after introduction of Theravada Buddhism by King Asoka through his son Aarahath Mahinda.

Sri Lanka later became the cradle of Theravada Buddhism in whole South and Southeast Asia with the patronage of Sinhala Kings. Despite several invasions by Chola – Pandya and various other forces, Buddhism flourished in Sri Lanka to boast its unique contribution to the academic excellence and spiritual fulfillment. There were many glorious periods and also unfavourable times in the history of Sinhala kingdom. It is a fact that those kingdoms did not exist within the demarcations, which we now identify as countries. However the point here is that despite various turbulences, Sinhalese have a unique identity, which is attached to the history of our beautiful island – Sri Lanka. My effort here is not to say that others lived side by side with Sinhalese, but to prove that the island’s history is mainly the history of Sinhalese and Therevada Buddhism.  I do not know whether Sinhalse have Chinese or Sumatran blood, but the history of Sri Lanka is mainly connected to those Indian Kingdoms and particularly to “Kalinda Kingdom”.

Sri Lanka did maintain close links with other Kingdoms in the region. During King Parakramabahu 1 in Polonnaruwa Era, am emissary of King parakramabahu was on its way to present day Cambodia of Khemer Kingdom. A provincial king in Ramana Desa (present day Burma) attacked the Sinhala delegation. King Parakramabahu sent his forces and demanded compensation from Ramana Desa and there were annual offerings of elephants from Ramana Desa to Polonnaruwa Kingdom. The historical records of Thai (Siam Desa) scriptures refer to their Buddhism as Simhala Buddihism. Even now the Buddhist lineage in Thailand is called “Sinhala Wong” (Sinhala Wansa). Therefore our history should be properly read and understood before making superficial comments such as it is pure “Aryayan” or otherwise pure ‘Dravidian’ or ‘Sumathran”. Nothing is pure but it is widely accepted that Sinhalese language has identical influence of Indo-Aryayan languages.

The second point of my comment here is the ‘globalisation’. How we are going to face it is the relevance as Migara represents one extreme and Weli-Polonga the other end.  My view on globalisation is very much similar to what the King of Thailand Bhumibol Adulyadej has said: “think global, act local”. We should absorb the global knowledge of new technology to our own needs. We should not be afraid of the word globalisation. It is a reality – it is at our doorstep now – you cannot totally reject it and hide ourselves in Sinharaja Forest.  But we should absorb the best of it to preserve our culture, environment and other values. The polarization of our thinking on ethnic-religious-political lines may cripple these efforts. I totally agree with Weli-Polonga on the new advancement of technology, but we should develop strategies to benefit from them to upgrade the mass population – not a few privileged in Colombo………………..



Offline weli_polonga

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2007, 03:33:33 PM »
Wow Waluka, You never told me that you are an ardent follower of Sri Lankan history. You have enhanced our knowledge every much. Thanks for the opinions expressed. I made my views on Marx coz you wanted to know whether I read him fully, the other day at KK.

 I know the general layout of the path how our history rolled. But do not recollect the years or names of our great leaders. The point I try to emphasis is that other than the 500 odd Aryans mentioned in recorded history there were other people who visited this island over the years and inter married us and left their blood is our veins. And what about Kuweni. I’m sure she and her clan were of Dravidian origin. You got to be a crazy like Hitler to believe that pure Aryan Blood run in Sinhalese (or Germans for that matter). Look at a map. There are over half a billion Dravidians (not only Tamils) living very close to us. So their blood too would have found a way into our veins.

Anuradhapura and Polonnaruwa eras were not Nation State eras. There were City States. Same goes to Rome as well. It was a City States. Although it conquered half the known world of it’s time, it remained a City State, because the technology it had could not support anything bigger than a city. Nation States started to appear much later when technology developed. Only after the advent of railway and telegraph that Nation Sates took full control of its citizen. Before that the big cities didn’t have much control over what happened probably 40 miles away other than send an occasional massage to the next city a hundred miles further. An average citizen didn’t travel more than 25 miles from his birthplace throughout his life. (There were exceptions, I know). These were changed with the Industrial Revolution (the Second Wave) that started in Mediaeval Europe and spread fast to other countries. The western world is ahead of us, because they had a jump start to the Newer Technology of that era, and most of the eastern world was subjugated by the western powers.

The Third Wave is the IT Revolution. Every nation can leap frog to this band wagon. So they can have a level field. When this wave runs its full course the Nation States will disappear, for they have done their part in history. And a little too cumbersome to carry piggyback on our shoulders. There will be no Westerners or Easterners. Just free citizens to control our collective future, while keeping our own individuality. But even the cultures will get meshed together. This is where globalization is leading us. We needn’t have anything bigger than a Municipal Council to clean our garbage and pay taxes to. Of cause there will be temporary setbacks in this road, but it is a little too late to turn the clock now. Let’s hope that no one drops the bomb before we get there. 
 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2007, 03:38:17 PM by weli_polonga »
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Offline Waluka

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2007, 08:15:51 PM »
Weli-polonga, your reply was very much appreciated. Although I agree with you on many points, I must not ignore the contradictions I see in your own arguments. My response may need a long space but I will try my best to be concise as much as possible.

Firstly on Kuweni – King Vijaya( sorry he came with 700 persons not 500)abandoned Kuweni later and got married to a princess from “Kalinga”. Kuweni, the story says, went to jungles with her two kids and the descendents of those children are the Vadda Community. However, those stories are merely folklore, but there must be some truth in it.  I do not want to identify myself as a believer in ‘pure Ayayan’ concept, however the undeniable truth of this concept is strongly embedded in our social fabric. The distance of Sinhalese and Dravidian cultures has identical differences, specially in language and religion. It does not mean that there were no interactions between Sinhalese and Dravidian cultures. Exactly 1000 years ago, Tamil Chola kings of South India invaded Polonnaruwa Kingdom. The occupation of Polonnaruwa by Chola invaders from 1017 AD to 1070 AD was one such period of historic interaction.  Despite these invasions, Sinhala culture and Theravada Buddhism survived all upheavals. The importance here is not to analyse the blood mixing, but to establish the fact that there was a distinct Sinhala - Theravada Buddhist culture that existed in medieval Sri Lanka, which continues to keep its identity in most parts of Sri Lanka to date.  Whatever we may try to establish by arguing that there is a half billion Dravidian population at the next door, we are unable to deny the historical facts that have been widely accepted by academia. The existence of Sinhala – Theravada Buddhist culture in Sri Lanka is a reality and we all may have to steer that culture for more tolerance and, perhaps more aggressive in some ways, for its own survival.

I do not deny your argument that Anuradapura and Pollonaruwa were city-states or whatever you may call it. But the massive irrigation systems and monumental erections of those kingdoms still immensely contribute for the well being rural masses of Sri Lanka. The emphasis must not be on the category of status of those kingdoms, not even the cruelty of kings or the authenticity of their origin, but what we have inherited from them. We should learn how to transform ourselves to a modern nation collectively. We should accept the diversity of our society, also the plurality of our culture, while acknowledging the aforesaid realities.

I totally agree with your views on the waves of new advances in human history. We should also not forget the environmental and military calamities brought by those advances to billions of people all around the world. While highly developed industrial countries, including EU, are now seriously talking about reversal of present environmental policies, we should find a way to prevent such disasters in our countries. Otherwise, as you wish, while we have only a municipal council to clean garbage, there wouldn’t be any human being to pay taxes or to receive services.

I do not believe at all on your notion that “there will be no westerners or easterners”. I however expect intense “cultural conflicts” between different “civilizations” in the future. As Samual Huntington in his book ‘Clash of Civilizations’ has identified, those civilizations will “defined their identities and, as a result, the composition and boundaries of civilization will change”.

He identifies seven or eight civilizations including, Western, Confucian (Chinese), Japanese, Islamic, Hindu, Slavic-orthadox, Latin American and possibly African. He has included Buddhist civilization in Sri Lanka and other Theravada countries into ‘Hindu Civilisation’.  My view is that there is a Buddhist civilization in Asia and it should be defined.  Furthermore, Huntington says “Civilizations-the highest cultural groupings of people-are differentiated from each other by religion, history, language and tradition. These divisions are deep and increasing in importance. From Yugoslavia to the Middle East to Central Asia, the fault lines of civilizations are the battle lines of the future”. We can now see those battles all over the world.  The so-called ‘universal civilization’ is a Western idea, directly at odds with most Asian societies. The conclusion is that I can never be a German, French, English, Arabic or at least Chinese. I will remain to be Sri Lankan, as well as you will be.





Offline weli_polonga

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2007, 07:30:24 PM »
My theory is based on the fact that although Vijaya may have imported a second Aryan wife; his followers intermarried with local population which would have been of Dravidian origin. Kuvenie left Vijaya alright, but is it written history that his new wife was Aryan? I doubt that. His landing at thambapani was pure accident, so retracting back to Sinhapura wouldn’t be easy. Orissa is fairly a long way off Putllam.

I am not that well versed like you to comment on Theravada Buddhist Culture, but some of those big monasteries were Mahayana in Origin. At least few info boards at these sites say so (In Anuradhapura). I do not dispute that Theravada is the only Buddhism found in Sri Lanka today (since the masses went to town when some Sinhala bikku wanted to open a Mahayana temple a few years back and the attack was much more fiery than that on Missionaries today). In most of Asia Mahayana is the leading form of Buddhism that people practice.

Frankly I don’t know the difference between the two. I never studied Buddhism. So let’s stick this topic away from religion except for historical reasons. My own family is half Buddhist. I was born a Catholic but live an agnostic life. I don’t believe in Nirvana or Heaven (but goes to church twice a year – Christmas and Church Feast) and to the temple on Wesak (to pick my wife). That’s the only time she visits temple. She usually joins me for the Christmas Mass just to check on who wares what. And we decorate our house on both occasions. My maternal grand father was a Buddhist and half his children are Buddhist. This way we can celebrate both festivals. And hardly any difference between the two if you dig really deep. (Take all the crap off). So far no Hindus or Muslims in our family circles. Otherwise we can really party the whole year around. (This will happen in my global village). 

You mention about South Indian Chola invasions of 1017 AD. But the Anuradhapura Kingdom too collapsed due to Tamil invasions, and that was in 4th Century AD. A cool 600 years before Polonaruwa period. And their presence around Anuradhapura was so grate that we abandoned a 16 hundred year old City State. (I’m giving dates from my memory which is not in its best shape. So just point out my mistakes, but don’t ever say that I was trying to mislead the site purposely). Anyway I will not argue on blood lines coz it will not be that important in the future. By next five or six generations we’ll have a real mixer of blood that any alien who visits this world will call us all just humans.

Can you explain how a Tamil will have a name like Aryaratnam or aryasingham ? Can’t think of one. So the intermixing of blood lines is on a two carriage highway.

Main point of my argument is not the pure Aryan, Sinhala blood line or Theravada Buddhist Culture that we inherit. I agree with you on these with few reservations I made. I’m trying to say how technologies influence cultures and life styles including the biggest institution that we call country (Nation State). These are all social creations to support communities, but they themselves are limited by the technology their citizen possess. When the Technology advanced the city states turned into Nation States with little or no control of its citizen. Then they became nations with a higher degree of control of its citizen (Few got authoritarian). If these States had better technology  than their neighbors (not bigger armies), they annexed them and created empires.

As time went by, the weaker annexed states too developed (or copied) the newer technology. They fought back and became free nations again. With further explanations of technology smaller communities (ethnic groups) believe that they can exist (support an economy) on their own. This is what you see around the world today including Sri Lanka.

This is today. Let me tell you how the future will take shape next week. This is already long enough. Got a couple of parties to attend in between. Hey I envy your knowledge of history and the ability to write so clearly. It’s a gift very few enjoy. I can think very clearly but mess it up when I write. Take Care.
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Offline Migara

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2007, 12:27:20 AM »
Weli_polonga is deperately trying to prove that Tamils are a major contributor to Sinhala civilization which is codswallop.

Aryans are regarded as caucasoid humans. Dravidians are a local group and there are differences in features of two races. Negroids, Mongaloids and Australoids are the other three major types. Vedda population is related to Austroloid population more similar to Austrailian aboriginees. Sinhala people have features of both caucasoids and vedda and carry similar disease patterns. Any one thought why dabetes is so pervelant in SL? because Vedda population are about 10 times more susceptible ti diabetes than caucasians.

How can we prove this?

1. Sinhala language is related to Indo-Aryan language group. The words have a striking similarity across these languages.
Ex - five in English
Sinhala Paha
Pali - Pancha
Latin - Penta

But in Tamil? no such similarity.

2. Sinhalese language is more similar to Benghali language. Not to Tamil, Kannada or Malayalam. The latter langages lack the phonetic nature of Bengali or Sinhalese

3. Sinhalese carry two major blood groups as opposed to tamils. 0-45% and B-40%. Tamils it is 90% O. And in Veddas it is 100% B. So it turns out that Sinhalese re descending from Aryans and Vedda.

4. There is a hematological disorder called Thalassemia. The gene mutation for the disease varies with the region and the origin of people and are carried from generation to generation. The mutations of Sinhalese are similar to that of people from Benga and Bangladesh and distinctly different from Tamils. Mutations of SL tamils are more closer to Sinhalese than their neigbors in Tamil Nadu. This prives that Sri Lankan Tamils are descending from Sinhalese not vice versa.

I hope this will throw some light on to what would have been a disaster of teling that "Sinhalese are descending from dravidians"
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Api thawama pem karamau ape jeewitha walata

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Offline weli_polonga

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Re: About Cleopatra
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2007, 12:06:03 PM »
Sorry for the delay folks. I waited for something from Waluka, before I give my opinion on Migara’s contribution on the history of Sinhala people.

First of all I haven’t done any research on the anthropology of Sinhala people when I suggested that we have many traits common with Dravidian masses. I accept that Sinhala language is linked to Pali / Sanskrit which are Indo-Aryan Languages of the past. These Indo Aryan languages derive from Proto – Vedic language that the Original Aryans used. So we have no conflict in this regard.

My view was based on LOOKS. We look much more like the Dravidians of South India than Aryans of neither India nor Europe. We specially look much more like inhabitants of Kerala. I have run into many Karalee’s thinking that they are Sinhalese at many malls in Mead East and Europe during my overseas stays. I travel alone at times and have to spend upto a week in some god forsaken city. So I do hang out in malls, to kill time and think that I will run into one of my own kind, to share a beer and a little chat. I can spot a Tamil, a mile away, but these Karalee’s make me dizzy. Many a time I have approached them thinking they are Sinhalese. So I made the conclusion that we share some ancient relationship.

But after these convergent views supplied by Waluka and Migara I checked up the Wikipedia on Sinhala People. The following is what I found there. I have left out some things to make this post a little shorter.


The Sinhalese are the main ethnic group of Sri Lanka. They speak Sinhala, an Indo-Aryan language and number approximately 15 million people with the vast majority found in Sri Lanka, while more than 300,000 live in other countries, mainly in Southeast Asia and the Middle East

History
Legendary accounts relating to the Indian epic saga, the Sanskritic Ramayana, discuss largely unverifiable events of deities battling over the fate of the ancient island of Lanka (presumably modern Sri Lanka), as the name of the island and its various peoples are often traced to the peoples and places named in the saga or some analogues that are believed to represent them. The Sinhalese derive their language from Indo-Aryan invaders from India who are believed to have invaded the island of Sri Lanka sometime around 500 BCE.
According to local legend, the Sinhalese are descended from the exiled Prince Vijaya and his party of several hundred who arrived on the island between 543 to 483 BCE after having been made to leave their native regions of Orissa, Bengal and elsewhere in India. The recorded history of the Buddhist Sinhalese can be found in two large chronicles, the Mahavamsa, written in P&#257;li roughly around the 4th century BCE, and the much later Chulavamsa (believed to have been penned in the 13 century CE by a Buddhist monk named Dhammakitti), which are considered unique in terms of age and longevity, and cover the histories of the powerful ancient kingdoms of Anuradhapura and Polonnaruwa. The name Sinhalese comes from the Indo-Aryan term Sinhala, meaning the lion people. Buddhism was an early element introduced to the island by Ashoka's son Mahinda during the 3rd century BCE and so the Sinhalese identity, combining their Indo-Aryan language and Buddhist faith, has defined much of Sri Lanka's history ever since.
Sri Lanka was home to aboriginal populations including the Veddahs and later Dravidian peoples who largely merged with an invading Indo-Aryan population of indeterminate size. Race as such in Sri Lanka has little basis in either anthropology or genetics, although variations do exist between some Sinhalese upper class group such as the Kandyan in contrast with the tiny remnants of full-blooded Veddahs, but intermingling has long blurred any substantial and general variations in the population. In fact, some early genetic tests (Y-chromosome and MtDNA only) show that the majority of the Sinhalese genetically cluster with both the Tamils and other Indic populations.[citation needed]
 Genetic and anthropological assessments
Contrary to popular opinion, in part instilled by British colonial policy of 'divide and rule, the Sinhalese are not a distinct group that is entirely or even mainly of 'Indo-Aryan' origin, which is itself a linguistic categorization and not a palpable 'racial' group. In fact, most Sinhalese, like most Indian populations show a high degree of genetic similarity that stems from a population that formed on the island roughly 12,000 years ago and has been little changed through invasions by Indo-Aryans and other groups. A 2003 Stanford study analyzing the origins of various South Asian populations (including 40 Sinhalese and over 90 Tamils from Sri Lanka) found that most of the population of the island and India in general:
Taken together, these results show that Indian tribal and caste populations derive largely from the same genetic heritage of Pleistocene southern and western Asians and have received limited gene flow from external regions since the Holocene. [5]
These findings are corroborated by numerous other studies including a 2004 Biomedical Central Study:
Gene flow from West Eurasia-Broadly, the average proportion of mtDNAs from West Eurasia among Indian caste populations is 17% (Table 2). In the western States of India and in Pakistan their share is greater, reaching over 30% in Kashmir and Gujarat, nearly 40% in Indian Punjab, and peaking, expectedly, at approximately 50% in Pakistan (Table 11, see Additional file 6, Figure 11, panel A). These frequencies demonstrate a general decline (SAA p < 0.05 Figure 4) towards the south (23%, 11% and 15% in Maharashtra, Kerala and Sri Lanka, respectively) and even more so towards the east of India (13% in Uttar Pradesh and around 7% in West Bengal and Bangladesh). The low (<3%) frequency of the western Eurasian mtDNAs in Rajasthan may be in part a statistical artifact due to the limited sample size of 35 Rajputs. [6]
Overall, the evidence supports the strong possibility that the Sinhalese are largely indigenous to Sri Lanka and adopted the Indo-Aryan language from invaders who in turn showed limited ancestry from some original Indo-Aryan invaders stemming from some Eurasian homeland. Ultimately, the genetic evidence also shows substantial genetic drift that corresponds to geography and in the case of Sri Lanka supports the notion that most Sinhalese stem from very early migrants, rather than later invaders:
Modern Pakistani, Indian, and Sinhalese donors, examined for combinations of mini- and microsatellite loci, along with a number of Y chromosome and mtDNA markers (24), show varying degrees of diversity, which is expected from their geographic position and ability to receive waves of migrants pulsing from Africa and West Asia at different times. DYS287 or Y chromosome Alu insertion polymorphism also clearly demonstrate the gradual decline in insert-positive Y chromosomes from Africa to East Asia, reaching a transition point from polymorphic levels (1 to 5%) to private polymorphism in Pakistan. [7]
Thus, not surprisingly other studies done from different perspectives and goals substantiate these findings. In a 2003 American Journal of Human Genetics study entitled The Genetic Heritage of the Earliest Settlers Persists Both in Indian Tribal and Caste Populations, the 'West Asian', presumably Indo-Aryan and other, genetic indicators show that,
Their frequency is the highest in Punjab, ∼20%, and diminishes threefold, to an average of 7%, in the rest of the caste groups in India... [8]
These findings all include sample groups from Sinhalese populations in Sri Lanka who were thus compared to other South Asian and other Eurasian groups. From an anthropological perspective, the modern Sinhalese represent a fusion of a wide variety that nonetheless is overwhelmingly indigenous to the island of Sri Lanka and the genetic variations (based on Y-chromosomes and MtDNA only) between the Sinhalese and their Tamil and Veddah neighbors appears to be largely marginal and may be restricted to a small degree of sporadic differences rather than anything universal although some genetic drift has taken place that corresponds to language barriers.

I have only cut and pasted. Every one is welcome to log into Wikipedia to learn more.

 
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